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Post by geometryman on Nov 28, 2020 19:04:13 GMT
The mothers all thought Elena's son was at the school on a scholarship but didn't really know. I assumed Jonathan was paying for him, and then it came out (in the middle of episode 3 somewhere, while Grace & her dad were playing chess) that Jonathan had gone to Grace's father for money. His line had been that Grace was worried about money and might have to take Henry out of the school, but wouldn't ever come to her dad herself, and please don't mention it to Grace... - her dad fell for it and gave Jonathan $500,000! I'm guessing that's why Elena and family weren't so badly off.
She let Jonathan take their car when he "had to leave to go to the hospital" - he offered to take her and drop her off on the way but she said no, she was on the committee and had to stay, she'd get an uber.
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Post by yankee on Nov 28, 2020 19:31:00 GMT
Thank you! My memory on some of the finer points sometimes falters unless I go back to rewatch the episodes.
I got so caught up in the philanthropy of the school in offering scholarships which I seem to recall was the point of the auction? To raise money for continued scholarships for low income minority children.
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Post by geometryman on Dec 1, 2020 9:26:20 GMT
Well, now we know - so much for our theories, mostly!
Although the plot required that the hammer didn't get dumped in the river, and that Henry should be an unrealistically wise old head on young shoulders, it was a clever and reasonably believable finish I thought. Great series, well made and highly entertaining.
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Post by yankee on Dec 1, 2020 16:49:39 GMT
I agree it was highly entertaining.
I did feel quite let down by the reveal - but it highlighted how effective the writers were at creating red herrings and keeping us guessing.
There were quite a few "Oh come on!" moments in the final episode, which I was mostly willing to overlook in the bigger picture of it being fictional entertainment.
*Jonathan stashing the murder weapon in his car overnight. Going home to bed with Grace. Driving the next day all the way to the lake house and then stuffing the murder weapon in the outdoor fireplace where Henry conveniently found it. When 100 yards behind the outdoor fireplace was a giant lake where he could chuck the hammer.
*Henry - he of the 40 year old intellect - finds the hammer, decides he wants to protect dad, runs it through the dishwasher TWICE no less, then sticks it in his violin case. When he took could simply have chucked it in the lake.
*Henry, who had been at every other day of the trial, is sent to school on the day of the verdict. OK I guess that makes sense. They dont want him to see his dad hauled off in shackles. But why did Grace seem completely uninvolved in getting him off to school that morning? Did she just send him out of the house to catch the bus? Surely with all the press hounding them she would have personally seen him into the limousine and sent a nanny or some sort to escort him to the front door of the school. Jonathan seemed rather un-inconvenienced in being able to just swing by and take him for a ride in the Rover.
*When the amber alert went out it was awfully convenient that not one, but two helicopters were ready and waiting to take Grace and Franklin and the two detectives to lead the manhunt.
*When Jonathan was ready to jump off the bridge, the police, who had been right on his tail, backed off a hundred yards or so to allow him and Henry to exit the Rover, Jonathan to climb the bride rail and have their little father and son moment. The police were also quite accommodating in allowing Grace to just go running off on her own to have her wife and husband moment - even though the amber alert said Jonathan should be considered armed and dangerous. No need to protect a woman and child from a sociopath hammer murderer or anything...
*After Grace and Henry walked away, the police took their leisurely time and in walking up to Jonathan and were quite gentle in cuffing him. These were American police right? LOL Also the police just let Grace, Henry and Franklin get in the helicopter and fly off? No need to for any messy paperwork or reports about the incident for the local police. I guess they could get that later.
There was also some VERY dodgy legal ethics on display from all three attorneys.
*The defense attorney was bound by law to not simply instruct Jonathan to turn the murder weapon over to the police. As an officer of the court she was duty bound herself to do so and to also alert the prosecution as part of the rules of discovery pertaining to evidence.
*Sylvia breached ethics when she told the prosecutor about the conversation between Grace and Jonathan's mother. Again, the rules of discovery would mean she would equally have to inform the defense Grace had told her these damning insights.
*The prosecutor would also be bound by the rules of discovery to tell the defense of any and all evidence they intended to present at trial.
That said, I am sure in real life lawyers breach these type of ethics all the time. Defense attorneys will often say "dont tell me if you have anything dodgy in your house the police might find. But if you do, get rid of it."
And lots of backroom conversations take place between lawyers divulging hearsay evidence and it doesn't always get shared with the other side.
The prosecutor was clearly leading Grace's testimony to make it look like it all came out just in conversation - that she wasnt aware ahead of time - but she slipped up when she said "Didnt his mother also discuss his lack of grieving with you about his sister?" As soon as she said that she let the cat out of the bag that she knew all of the details of the coversation and was duty bound as an officer of the court to tell the defense before putting it into evidence at trial.
All three lawyers would have been subject to being disbarred and losing their license, the defense attorney possibly even face criminal charges for withholding evidence and encouraging a felony by suggesting the evidence should be gotten rid of.
The acting was brilliant by both women lawyers in the court scenes.
The child actor who played Miguel, Elena's boy was also incredible in the court room scene.
I felt Nicole Kidman really overacted in the last couple of episodes.
I thought Hugh Grant however was quite good. His character morphed into and out of gentle dad and sociopath rage in a Jekyll and Hyde manner that would seem authentic in such a person.
Overall 3.5 of out 5 stars. Would have gone for 4.5 if not for so many bonkers moments and how they wrote Henry to be like a 40 year old.
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Post by geometryman on Dec 2, 2020 12:40:22 GMT
The hammer on which much of the plot rested was the weakest part for me. Jonathan's claim - that Elena's husband had planted it for someone to miraculously find despite it being hidden, and knew where the beach house was by having followed him and Elena there at some point - was ludicrous. Though this was probably deliberately made unbelievable for the plot, since shortly afterwards he switched to suggesting it was Henry, at which point I think Grace began to decide he was guilty as hell and had to be taken down.
Is there such a thing as a standard sculptor's hammer, and if not would Elena's husband (presumably) remember exactly what it looked like? At the start of the trial no murder weapon had been found and the condition of Elena's body meant there was no forensic evidence as to what it might have been, yet the prosecutor stated that it definitely was Elena's missing hammer and managed somehow to produce a precise duplicate to show the jury. I suspect they are just as diverse as DIY hammers you would get from a hardware store. Haley deciding that it was of "no evidentiary value" and nobody needed to mention it seemed entirely reasonable to me!
But I don't know much about the law. Though it did strike me there were things happening in court that would never have been allowed during a real trial. If something is pure hearsay, does it even count as evidence? I think the judge said that Haley's objections would have been sustained, and the prosecution's "empathy" line of questioning disallowed, if Grace was a prosecution witness - but it was acceptable in cross-questioning since she had been called as a defense witness. A bit of a fine point perhaps, but it's what struck me as the clever part. After Jonathan's mother conveniently phones her out of the blue (having never spoken to her since their wedding) with useful info about Jonathan's past, Grace gets Sylvia to tell the prosecutor about it and works things so Haley puts her on the witness stand. She's not a lawyer and presumably Sylvia advised her if it would work, but she is a psychologist and would know how to play it to swing a jury while appearing to support Jonathan.
Those helicopters! Grace and Franklin were in his private helicopter - he called the pilot Billy - which he presumably had readied as soon as they realised Jonathan had done a runner with Henry and even before the police were called. But I did wonder if, flying close to the police helicopter like that and then landing on a road, they were breaking any air safety regulations.
I thought the acting was strong for all the major characters, and if anything Nicole Kidman underplayed a woman gobsmacked by one appalling revelation after another.
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Post by yankee on Dec 2, 2020 13:25:36 GMT
Great points about the hammer! Like you I assumed there was just one type of sculptors hammer-a sort of mini sledge.
But as you say the prosecutor was able to argue that it was without question the murder weapon despite Elena's face being mush and impossible to prove forensicly.
Haley did mention the prosecution's case was purely circumstantial. I guess that was part of it.
The judge was definitely not in control which seems and did very little in the way of keeping things very tight.
I found that unlikely given the press coverage of the case was on par with the OJ Simpson trial.
The judge knew every decision he made was going to be scrutinized in the press.
You are correct such hearsay evidence would not normally be allowed unless one of the parties was dead and hearsay conversations are the only record of what they said.
Even so what did it really prove. That Jonathan as a teenage boy internalized his emotions.
What teenage boy doesn't internalize his emotions?
Psychologists and psychiatrists all over the world have made billions treating adult men and women who are still dealing with the trauma of their teenage years. That doesn't mean they are hammer murders.
Jonathan's mom also said how they swathed Jonathan in love and family support waiting for his grief to come out.
But when Jonathan's mother was talking with Grace she seemed a right bitch. She corrected Grace's grammar in the first 10 seconds they were talking. She seemed very hard, cold.
The mother made a brief mention of Henry. What grandparent wouldn't want to keep up a dialog with Grace and then eventually Henry through email, telephone, video chat even if estranged from your own son?
Grace mentioned she sent photos the grandma didn't say thanks?
I could see Jonathan wanting to pick up stakes and move to New York to get away from his parents if they were both so staunch as that.
Anyway, I don't know that the jurors were thinking "you know I wasn't sure he was the murderer, but when I heard he was responsible for a terrible accident that resulted in his sister's death when he was 14 and he didn't know how to express his grief or guilt 40 years ago. Well he clearly killed Elena..."
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Post by geometryman on Dec 2, 2020 21:21:49 GMT
I thought the end of Grace's testimony was very telling. She said "I know who and what I married" and the prosecutor replied "Yes, I think you do".
There's an interesting couple of minutes after the end credits, did you see it? Susanne Bier (the director), Nicole Kidman, Hugh Grant and Noah Jupe (who played Henry) gave us a few notes on the finale and their characters. Hugh Grant says "I think the main question is, was it all a front? Did Jonathan really love them? Or did he just love them loving him?".
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Post by yankee on Dec 3, 2020 19:01:29 GMT
I thought the end of Grace's testimony was very telling. She said "I know who and what I married" and the prosecutor replied "Yes, I think you do". There's an interesting couple of minutes after the end credits, did you see it? Susanne Bier (the director), Nicole Kidman, Hugh Grant and Noah Jupe (who played Henry) gave us a few notes on the finale and their characters. Hugh Grant says "I think the main question is, was it all a front? Did Jonathan really love them? Or did he just love them loving him?". I didnt see that. Thanks for the tip I will go back and watch it. Did you ever watch the series "Dexter?" If not, the titular character was vigilante serial killer who also worked for the Miami police homicide department as forensics expert. His profession both helped him access new "very, very bad men/women" who slipped through the hands of legal system and needed his special brand of justice. There was one season where the main protagonist was serial killer known as the "Trinity Killer" - played brilliantly by John Lithgow - who, on the surface, was a dedicated philanthropy professional who built homes for the needy, was deacon at his church and had the seemingly perfect family. But as you said, he didnt "love" his family. He fed off their love and adulation, which only came as a result of their sheer terror at doing anything that might disappoint him. One of the recurring themes in Dexter is that he sometimes became friends with the main protagonist of that seasons story arc. As he did with John Lithgow, and there is always some introspection in his study of an evil serial killer juxtaposed to his noble serial killer.
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Post by geometryman on Dec 4, 2020 7:28:19 GMT
I never watched Dexter, but that's an interesting parallel involving the John Lithgow character. Since 3rd Rock from the Sun I always associated him with comedies but it's easy to forget he can play quite unpleasant ones - as in the film Bombshell which I watched a couple of weeks ago.
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Post by marion on Dec 4, 2020 10:44:52 GMT
I watched Bombshell a couple of weeks ago too. Unless I knew he was in the cast I would never have recognised John Lithgow in that. Good film I thought.
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Post by geometryman on Dec 4, 2020 10:57:50 GMT
Me too! He must have spent many hours in the make-up department. And also in The Crown, playing Churchill.
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Post by yankee on Dec 4, 2020 14:44:35 GMT
In this brief clip from Dexter, John Lithgow has come to realize that Dexter, who had been pretending to be "Kyle" a troubled young man who wanted to join his church, was not who he claimed to be. Dexter was vetting John Lithgow to make 100% certain he was the Trinity Killer before enacting vigilante justice.
John Lithgow walks into the police station and sees the crime boards showing all his victims and beams with creepy pride.
And chuckles when he sees the police have a different man as their main suspect. And realizes Dexter must be steering things that way. But why?
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Post by yankee on Dec 4, 2020 14:55:02 GMT
The final confrontation and the debate over good vs.evil serial killers.
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Post by sootycat on Dec 6, 2020 12:48:30 GMT
I really enjoyed Dexter. I have read there is a new limited series coming soon.
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Post by yankee on Dec 6, 2020 17:37:09 GMT
I've heard that as well. With Dexter having faked his own death at the end of series 8 maybe his character will be a drifter like "The Fugitive" and wander to a new city/state each week exacting vigilante justice on very, very bad men and women.
Though I did hear John Cusak was cast as the story arc "very, very bad man" villian for series 9 so maybe Dexter has planted roots since we last saw him.
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